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OBITUARY WE ARE SORRY TO LEARN OF THE DEATH OF.... F.G.Gilbert-Bentley, one of our founder members. Mr. Gilbert-Bentley lived near Guildford and was therefore unable to attend GIHS meetings but he did make a number of contributions to this Newsletter. |
Some of Greenwich's Oldest Industrial Remains Rediscovered
On 13th May the Times, no less, announced in an article by Marcus Binney that 'Two Deptford residents with a passion for history have discovered the foundation stone of one of the first buildings erected by the Royal Navy' and went on to describe 'the stone, bearing the date 1513 and the initials of Henry VIII set in an elaborate flame-headed Gothic Arch formed of the finest moulded Tudor brickwork. This 'originally stood over the entrance to a magnificent 140ft long storehouse that formed the showpiece of a new Royal shipbuilding yard built by Henry VIII at Deptford just up-river from his palace at Greenwich.
Our readers will know the story of the Shipwrights' Palace on the Deptford Dockyard site and how it was taken over and is being restored by Chris Mazeika and William Richards. As part of their researches on the Dockyard they began to look at the naval architect Samuel Bentham, since he had connections with the Shipwrights' Palace. Samuel's brother, Jeremy, was the famous economist whose corpse is preserved in a cupboard at University College - not, as it turns out, the only relic kept there. Chris Mazieka was astonished one day, while on his way to lunch, to bump straight into some bits of Deptford Dockyard itself!
In the Second World War bombing on the dockyard site had brought to light the old Tudor storehouse within a Georgian storehouse which had been built round it in the 1720s. In 1951 it was decided to clear the whole site for commercial use. The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings reported that at least 80% of the Tudor brickwork remained as did several original roof trusses together with a mullioned window, Tudor fireplaces and loophole windows. The London County Council tried to persuade the Admiralty to preserve these remains and the building inspectors advised that it had 'an outstanding place in naval history as one of the earliest buildings of its class and as one of the starting points of the growth of the Tudor navy...' Deptford Council took a tablet which commemorated Peter the Great's visit to Deptford and 20,000 Tudor bricks went to repair Hampton Court. Photographs existed of the arch and date stone but - as anyone who has attended local history lectures on the subject in Greenwich will know - they had gone into the care of the LCC and then completely disappeared. Until, of course they were found by Chris Mazeika at University College.
The Times article left the mystery there - but a few days later a letter appeared from Negley Harte, Senior Lecturer in Economic History at University College, who said 'I can shed light on how the Deptford Dockyard founding stonework and brickwork of 1513 came to University College'.. The hero who rescued it was Sir Albert Richardson the 'wonderfully eccentric architect' who was professor of architecture at UCL. He was given the pieces by the LCC and they were put in what was then the Bartlett School of Architecture - now the Department of Computer Science.
The only thing the article doesn't say is how you get in if you
want to see these pieces! UCL is not the most accessible of buildings
for the general public.
Where addresses are not given, please contact through the Editor, c/o 24 Humber Road, London SE3
From: Jeremy Bacon
I have a steam car engine. The plate on it says Steamobile built 1962 by N. C. Gregory. I have been told that he was possibly Apprentice Foreman/Teacher at J. Stone & Co. (Deptford). Can you help at all?
From: Pat O'Driscoll
In the May issue a letter from Paul Harcombe mentions some 'old maps' at the Land Registry showing a building called the Magnetic Office close to the Rotunda, Woolwich. Unfortunately he does not give the dates of the maps.
In 1844 the newly created Admiralty Compass Department acquired a house on Maryon Road, Charlton for testing compasses for the Royal Navy. It had a large garden in which a wooden observatory was built. The official address of the establishment was 'The Compass Observatory, Woolwich'. In 1869 as the Royal Dockyard at Woolwich was closed, the Compass Department moved to Deptford Yard where they remained until 1917.
Could the Magnetic Office have any connection with the time when the Compass Department was at Charlton. I hoped to find an answer in 'Steady as She Goes: A History of the Compass Department of the Admiralty' by A.E.Fanning, published in 1986 but could find no reference to the Magnetic Office in the area described by Mr. Harcombe. This is not to say that there was no connection. I think that this is a good place in which to begin further investigation.
From: Nick Martin
I have just come across your website and your email address. I wonder if you have any information on the following. I am trying to trace details of my great-great-grandfather's company "Martin & Co". It was started by Robert Martin with his two sons Alfred and Albert. Albert left it to his son Ernest, in 1932. They were manufacturers of Horse Hair clippers, later becoming hairdressers clippers, from about 1875 until at least 1927. Robert Martin lived at No 1, The Village, Old Charlton, Woolwich from 1881 until 1906 and with his sons, had several business addresses over the years, including:
1861 - 4 Upper Market Street, Woolwich
1873 - Old Charlton, Kent
1881 - 15 Rectory Place, Woolwich, Kent
1890 - Charles St, Plumstead, Kent (from Patents)
1891-1900 - 229 Burrage Road, Plumstead, Kent
1893 - North Kent Works, Charles Street, Plumstead, Kent (from Patents)
1910-1928 - 4 Nightingale Place, Woolwich Common, Woolwich (business address? - printed on hair clipper sales pamphlet and from patents)
1913 - Owned factory and adjacent land in Woolwich Dockyard. Owned freehold property, address 9, Gildersome Street, Woolwich (from Will)
If you have any information, I would be delighted to have details.
From: Bill Burns
My friend in Australia, Julian Holland, Curator of Scientific Instruments at the Macleay Museum, University of Sydney, is looking for material on S.H. Silver. I had suggested he check the GIHS site.
From: Peter Mumford
I was very interested to see from your website (which I have only just discovered) that someone from English Heritage recently gave a talk on the Mumford Mill. My name is Peter J.G. Mumford and the mill was owned by my family. I was taken around the Mill just before my family sold it in the early sixties when it was an empty shell having been stripped of its contents by Rank Hovis when their lease ended. I have many old photographs of the Mill and indeed some original plans (I think). I will have to dig. I lived in London for many years and often used to pass the Mill but I haven't seen it for about fifteen years. I would be very interested in knowing what info you have about the Mill, and indeed if you could advise me of the current ownership. I long to see inside it again and would very much like to show my sons what their grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents achieved. Does the Mill now have a preservation on it?
From: Bruce Peebles
I'm from Laverton in Western Australia. I recently acquired a set of old rigging and sail plans for the Cutty Sark but after many hours of close examination am unable to verify them as correct or to date them in any ways There appears to be no author's name or period on them. They do appear to be of some age due to the discolouring of the paper and hand drawn. Are you able to assist me in the dating and authentication of these plans?
From: John Greig
My cousin from the Hawaiian branch of the family has come up with some interesting papers that might be relevant to the oil milling trade at Greigs' Wharf in Greenwich. Firstly, it is likely that there could have been considerable changes around 1903 - my great-grandfather was then in financial difficulties and might have had to make economies. Secondly, the estate in Trinidad was more diversified than just sugar cane, there was land under coconuts and also, certainly in later years, some was used for cocoa cultivation. The coconuts might account for the oil milling and you mentioned a fire in the cocoa store at the wharf in 1895. Thirdly, there was a connection with a line of steamers - this was probably the Trinidad Shipping and Trading Company Limited. However, this may only have run between Trinidad, New York and Glasgow.
In addition, I have been in touch with the oil milling trade
association and they have put me in contact with three people with a
knowledge of the history of the trade. One of them has said that most
of the linseed came in from the Baltic rather than from other
areas.
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by John Fox
After spending 18 months with Deafy I was sent for a spell in the machine shop, here I was lucky in not going on the lathes but working with a little Geordie chap, on the shapers, milling machines and a slotters. His having a mouthful of bad teeth (perhaps due to him, as a child, having been weaned on Newcastle Brown Ale) and always wearing brown overalls is all I can recall about the chap. I do remember that the fellow's ability wasn't highly regarded by the fitters, others in the machine shop would only leave a few thou for the fitter to work with to make the final fit whereas the closest our Geordie measurements came was 16ths. He must have taught me something however, for when a vessel built by Harland's at Belfast sunk on her maiden voyage outside Buenos Aires, I was given the task of drilling hundreds of 2 inch holes running together into her now unwanted spare propeller. This done so that wedges could be driven into the slots I'd cut to split the prop into more manageable pieces for ease of transporting the valuable phosphor bronze to be melted down. I did all this on a very big boring machine. When I say big, I really mean big.. it was huge, a cricket pitch could have been laid out on its bed. But I will admit a fast bowler would have shorten his run up, for it would be a lie to infer that it was as large as all that.
In ship repairing, mechanical drawing were very rarely used. If, for instance, a valve stem had to be made you would be given the worn out stem and told to make the new one from that. A man's experience as a marine fitter and turner told him what clearances were needed and as a skilled man, he would not allow anyone to tell him how to do it. There was a case of a fitter working outside on one of the ships in the dock, who, on direct instructions from his charge hand, had fitted a set of unsuitable water pump rings to a boiler feed pump. The ship nearly blew up its boiler when raising steam to sail and when the cause of the fault was found the fitter was sacked. The chap's attempt to enlist union help to get his job back failed, for it was universally thought by his fellows that he should never have obeyed instructions to do something he knew to be wrong. I can recall, when apprentice, drilling the shuttle of a Weirs shuttle valve on a pillar drill in the fitting shop. Something went wrong and another fitter, seeing I was in difficulties, told me how to put it right. This friendly help made things worse and when I pleaded to Ernie that is what I was told to do, he burst out. "You don't do everything you're told, you wouldn't stick you head in the gas oven if I told you to would you."
The last spell of my apprenticeship was spent working outside the North Woolwich site on the ship's engines of the many vessels that crammed the Royal Group of Docks in those days. Here again there was no suggestion that you should work on your own, even though we were on our last year, we would be put to work with a fitter and his mate to be given instruction, not as cheap labour. Many years later, I was a labour officer within a large organisation, my work took me a lot into our apprentice training school, sitting on interview panels, advising on disciplinary matters, negotiating with the trade union, selecting the next year's intake of apprentices etc. I had to listen to a continual complaint from the lads, and the unions, that the boys were being used as cheap labour. They and the union were so effective in this that eventually the school was closed down, I feel sure there is a message there somewhere. Over the negotiations for the closure of the school the dreaded hand of accountants and their mentality hang, They produced figures which proved that the school was not cost effective, based on the ground that the firm did not receive any benefit from the money spent, as the lads, when their apprenticeship was completed, left. But Messrs Harland and Wolfe gave you the sack when yours was over, go and work as a Journeyman with other firms, the apprentice expected to be told, and if, after a couple of years you want to return, we will consider re-employing you. Which to my mind is a more profound way of approaching apprentice training. They did not want a man who only knew their way of doing a job, but, quite rightly, wanted a more rounded employee.
However, to get back to my year of apprenticeship spent working on merchant ships in the Royal Docks. The organisation of the outside section was that the foremen were at H & W's number nine site, which was where City Airport's main building is now; perhaps, over a mile away, the tradesmen on the ship would be working under a charge hand. Of course, there were many other services milling around the ship's engine room while it was under repair. A heavy gang who did the rigging and lifting the weighty lumps of machinery that make up a ship's engine. Scalars, whose unenviable task was to climb into the boiler to chip away at the scale that had built up on its tubes and wall. Laggers who maintained the asbestos pipe lagging, Invariably small men racked with consumption, (no one had told us of the dangers carried by asbestos fibre, we apprentices regarded it as a great joke when working on a boiler to drop a lump on a fellow apprentice working below). There were the riggers, a holdover from the sailing ship days, whose once important trade now whittled down to rigging barriers around potential dangers, boilermakers, electricians, plumbers... all these adding to the confusion of a ship's engine room under repair.
Harland and Wolfe had built many of the ships of the Union Castle Line, whose run was carrying passengers and mail to and from South Africa. Most of these ships had Burmister Wain diesel engines, made under licence in Belfast, and the bulk of my remaining time was working in the docks on these 'Castle' boats. A ship's diesel engine is not to be confused with the engine of your motor car, it is a lot bigger for one thing. An eight cylinder B&W would be about 20 feet high and 45 feet long and many Union Castle liners had two of these. I found working on a ship's engine was a hard, dirty, uninteresting job. The memory of perhaps 40 men queuing up to wash their oily hands in a solitary grease encrusted bucket of hot water is still with me. On one occasion, an old fitter was vigorously rubbing at the dirt and grease that covered his hands when I, to be friendly, said. "That's right, Ted, have a good wash now, it'll save you having another one in the morning." Old Ted went spare; it took him ten minutes at least to splutter out his procedure for cleaning up when he got home, leaving me with the impression that Ted had no sense of humour.
A while ago, I was on a conducted tour of the Tower at Canary Wharf and the guide enthused about the new vitality brought to the deserted dockland areas of London and gestured to the derelict buildings below. I think we both saw different scenes below us, in his mind was the exhilarating prospect of money being made. In my mind though, those building were teeming with the ghosts of the many characters with whom we worked. How sad is the scene to anyone who had worked in London docks in their heyday, now the sheds and wharfs are empty, a lifeless shell, like the remains of a crab cast aside when its meat has been extracted.
These were the days of National Service and as an apprentice you
would not be called up for your turn until you had completed your
'time', but a matter of two months before mine ended I received
notice to go before a medical board at Blackheath Drill Hall. In
almost a blind panic I enlisted the full cooperation of Harland's
management and to avoid doing National Service I ended my
apprenticeship at sea, as a Junior Engineering Officer on the
MV Trevelyan, one of the Haines Steamship Company ships, on a trip to
Australia.
By John McLean
My grandfather, William Luckett, lived in Palmerston Road, now a crescent, in a terraced house. This had a side entrance to the back garden where he had a ramshackle workshop from which he ran a one-man business manufacturing clay pipes. These were predominantly for the beer industry and later for tobacconists.
I was told that the pipes were given to customers who bought a pint of 'porter' in the pubs. Granddad received four pence a gross for his pipes - from which you will understand that he was unlikely to be a rich man. He ran the business totally on his own and I can remember seeing rack after rack of pipes of varying shapes and sizes in the roof space above his workshop.
There was an all pervading smell in the workshop, not at all unpleasant. Presumably this came from the china clay, which he procured from Cornwall and was delivered by rail to Woolwich Arsenal Station. How on earth he managed to transport such heavy loads I don't know - I believe he had a pony and trap at one stage but in my time he used 'shank's pony'.
As far as I can recall - and I apologise for my lack of memory - the process involved a mixing system to acquire the correct consistency, a moulding process using cast moulds (iron) with inserts for forming the bowl and a needle to form the airway. Incidentally, I have one of granddad's moulds with 'Merry Christmas' embossed on it. Whether he had multiple moulds I cannot say, but as a production engineer I would have thought it an obvious way to go.
The final process after 'fettling' or cleaning up the clay that exuded through the joints in the mould, was to fire them in a high temperature open furnace. Granddad had built this himself and it was a bit like Dante's Inferno. It had a chain-lifted cast iron bucket full of pipes which was lowered into a coke fire. But it all worked and beautiful little and large clay pipes emerged. The chimney of the furnace was incredible. Granddad used anything available to construct it - bricks, bits of glass, rock, porcelain, - you name it, Granddad used it. How it ever resisted the ravages of nature I do not know but it did. The only mementoes I have is the mould and two small pots made from 'Arsenal clay' and 'Plumstead' clay,
Granddad's brother, Fred Luckett, was financially much more
successful and he became a well known builder in the Plumstead area
living in Griffin Road and having a works close to Plumstead High
Street. I believe there is a garage in the High Street with the
Luckett name above it to this day.
TWO PICTURES OF TUNNEL AVENUE IN THE 1920s By Mary Mills GLIAS has been given two photographs by Simon Bass. One of them shows what appears to be a factory yard, taken from above, the other shows a crowd of people standing in the road. In both the ground appears to be covered with something black, and shiny. The crowd are standing in Blackwall Lane in Greenwich - since the distinctive frontage of the Inlaid Lino Works and an advertisement for them can be seen in the background. I have a fair idea what is being shown in the pictures - since an account of it appears in 'A History of the United Molasses Company Ltd.' (W.A,Meneight 1977). 3,000 tons of molasses had escaped from a tank and was making 'its ponderous and inexorable way into Tunnel Avenue'. As Mr.Meneight pointed out, this was not useful in an area where 'trams were served by a conductor rail running in a gully between the lines'. Try as I can in the local papers I cannot find the date of this incident which must have taken place in the late 1920s. The molasses was used by the Molassine Company which had a riverside factory on the Greenwich Peninsula on part of the site now largely covered by Hays and Amylum. In October 1999 we published an article about them in the Greenwich Industrial History Newsletter. This described how the company was founded in 1907 to exploit a Balkan secret formula for animal food - and the company made a number of well known brands including Vims which 'all dogs love' and a sphagnum moss and molasses based feed for horses (also used as a plaster by First World War soldiers). The article included some memories of the works contributed by John Needs and he remembered how Vims was frequently mentioned in Norman Wisdom films and how the yard sweepings were sold as a garden fertiliser 'RITO'. The company eventually became part of Tate and Lyle. Today there is a large red stone office block in Blackwall Lane which is said to have been built by Molassine - although I have never seen any actual details of this. Behind it are a number of large tanks. I cannot believe that these are the same tanks which stood there in the 1920s and which leaked so dramatically into Blackwall Lane and which Molassine's publicity department described as a landmark on the river, although it might be a good story to say so. To local people the most notable thing about the factory was the smell! WHAT A PITY - there is to be no celebration of the
50th anniversary of the Last LCC Tram which was driven to
the Tramatorium in the Woolwich Road, by Alf Jago, Mayor of
Woolwich - amongst scenes of great distress from the general
public. David Riddle points out that Lewisham are to
celebrate their 'last tram' (but Greenwich's really was the
very last one). |
By Jack Vaughan
There was a recent planning application for changes to the water tower of the ex-Brook Hospital at Shooters Hill Road plus a possible threat to an adjacent stone building known as Headway House, which fronts onto the road. Study of Ordnance maps for 1869 and 1890 show the building to be the former 'Kent Water Company' pumping station.
The base of the tower itself has coupled with it a massive collection of hydraulic apparatus, probably connected to Headway House, although the tower post-dates the maps mentioned.
We are trying to determine if the House is threatened. We are also taking an interest in the hydraulic arrangements mentioned above. The applicants have refused to leave this apparatus in situ but will offer no objection to them being removed and taken away for possible restoration and exhibition elsewhere.
The pumping station supplied water to the Barracks, the Royal Arsenal, both Royal Dockyards (Woolwich and Deptford) and the Royal Military Academy and is therefore a very significant industrial monument in Woolwich history .
more of this later.
Mike Neill is extremely keen that all members look - and approve or criticise - his work on the Royal Arsenal which will be used as part of the display in the new Greenwich Heritage Centre. At the moment this is in the shape of a web site, www.royal-arsenal.com and members are urged to look at it. Mike also says that he will try and produce this as a CD-ROM for those who do not have Web access - or contact him via Greenwich Council.
Rose Baillie of the City of London Archaeological Society is interested to receive any information on barge building and repairing on the Thames - in general. Rose Baillie, 15 Escuan Lodge, Aberdeen Park, Highbury, N5 2AP. R.baillie@unl.ac.uk 020 7753 3143
NO NEWS - we still have no news of the event to mark the centenary of Greenwich Foot Tunnel - last mention from Barry Mason was a note - saying 'I took today off work and went down to Redhill to see Binnie, Black and Veatch. The firm founded by the FT engineer, Alexander Binnie. Now a multi-national. The company is excited about the FT 100th birthday on Sunday, 4th August and today confirmed their budget of around £5,000 on the event. Our meeting laid down the ground-rules and outlined who does what. We meet again, on site, in about 1.5 weeks. If you've got time to help with all this, please let me know direct. If, for example, you work at Canary Wharf and tunnel commute, can you firm help too? Tower Hamlets. Are you in? More soon.
Barry
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This newsletter was produced for Greenwich Industrial History Society, Chair, Jack Vaughan, 35 Eaglesfield Road, SE18. Views expressed in it are those of the authors and not of the Society.
Contributions (within reason) are always welcome.
ANY NEWSLETTER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS ITS CONTENTS MAKE IT.
IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO TO CONTRIBUTE - ARTICLES, REPORTS, LETTERS -
ANYTHING
Please send to Mary Mills (address below).
Meetings as advertised at the head of this newsletter will be held at;
The Old Bakehouse, (at back of the) Age Exchange Reminiscence Centre, 11 Blackheath Village, London, SE23 9LA.
Do not go to the Reminiscence Centre itself - The Old Bakehouse is at the back, in Bennett Park. Walk into Bennett Park and turn left into a yard. The Old Bakehouse is the building on your right. The entrance is straight ahead.
.... OR PLEASE CONTACT MARY MILLS, 24 HUMBER ROAD, SE3 7LR. 020 8858 9482
And...... DON'T FORGET TO ASK US FOR A MEMBERSHIP FORM
.... David Riddle, Goldsmiths College
Space courtesy of Goldsmiths College, University of London